Experiment Nation’s 2024 CRO Salary Report and how to paid what you’re worth with Tracy Laranjo

AI-Generated Summary

It’s that time of year again! It’s time for Experiment Nation’s 2024 CRO Salary Report. In this episode, we explore some of the report’s highlights with Tracy Laranjo as well as ask her for her thoughts on how CROs and Experimenters can get paid fairly.


AI-Generated Transcript

[00:00:00] Tracy Laranjo: When you end up in a team lead role, you kind of have that, you, you wear all the hats you are oftentimes, especially in CRO, you’re responsible for being the strategist and the analyst, sometimes the developer, the copywriter designer, all of that, and you’re responsible for oftentimes leading people. So.

Your salary is not doubling, but your workload is doubling.

[00:00:30] Rommil Santiago: Hi, my name is Rommil Santiago and I’m the founder of Experiment Nation. Today’s a very special episode. We’re going to talk about this year’s CRO average salary report. Join me. Is Tracy Lorenjo. Together we talk about the recent trends in salaries, how it breaks down, and we talk about how you can get your bag.

We hope you enjoyed the episode. Hi everyone. My name is Rommil Santiago and I’m the founder of Experiment Nation. And today I have a special guest, someone you may recognize in front of the camera as well as in front of the camera, uh, Tracy Lorenjo. I’ll let, I’ll let her, uh, introduce herself.

[00:01:06] Tracy Laranjo: Thank you. I love that you said in front of the camera twice.


[00:01:10] Rommil Santiago: yeah, I was going to say, Oh, I want, I meant to say interviewee and interviewer, but then I was midstream. I was like, well, I just talked myself into a corner.

[00:01:21] Tracy Laranjo: Well, that’s fine. Uh, I don’t know who’s interviewing who this time around, so we’re just going to have to volley, I guess. And you love volleyball.


[00:01:29] Rommil Santiago: I do. I do. And, uh, very sore ankles from it.

[00:01:32] Tracy Laranjo: Yeah.

[00:01:33] Rommil Santiago: Um, yeah, it comes with age. But, today, I guess we’re, neither of us are interviewing. We’re going to talk about, well, maybe we are. But today we’re going to talk about, um, the upcoming salary report. And then from there, we’ll, we’ll talk about, uh, what to do with that information, to be honest.

Yes. Um. So yeah, like let’s, let’s jump right into it coming out right now, or if you’re listening to this, um, in the next week or month, it’s, it’s out already, uh, experimentation has put together its annual CRO average salary report, where we ask a bunch of folks, what do they make? And we try to break down that information by different factors, like where, uh, their seniority, their country, their orientation, minority status.

Uh, and stuff like that, just to help everyone get paid what they deserve in this field. When you’re into these, uh, negotiations for job or contract work or what have you, you always want to be paid fairly. Um, and to, to help folks do that, we let people know what other people making, uh, who are similar to them.

[00:02:37] Tracy Laranjo: Love the salary report. Like, I remember when you first started talking about creating the salary report and I was like, this is the best thing ever. I need this. Cause I had no idea where I stacked up versus my peers. And. I’m also really nosy. I love knowing how much money people make. And I’m okay with sharing how much money I make too.

It’s kind of how women get, get their bag is by knowing So

[00:03:03] Rommil Santiago: should we post this on, we’ll post it on LinkedIn. Yeah, yeah,

[00:03:04] Tracy Laranjo: yeah. You can blast my, my last year’s salary. It’s absolutely pathetic. But yeah, it’s, it’s so important to know how much other people make so that you can advocate for yourself. And you don’t know what you don’t know.

If you’re making a third of what. Everyone else around you is making. Would you not want to change that? I

[00:03:26] Rommil Santiago: would. Salary information is always a touchy thing. I’ve learned in some countries, they’re very open about it. And in coworkers will openly talk about what they make in America. It’s a little more guarded.

It’s even taboo to go, Hey, how much do you make? Um, so this is kind of a way around that to avoid that awkward question, at least in the Americas. Um, but yeah, absolutely. You, if you’re not paying, if you’re delivering the same value, you’re not being paid as much as your peers. You should absolutely know about that.

[00:03:52] Tracy Laranjo: Yeah.

[00:03:53] Rommil Santiago: Um, let me just pull up the report here. Uh, give me a second. Is that a screen share? So yeah, as we look at this year and to call out, we have about 200 and not about, we have exactly 205 respondents. Um, there’s always biases in these things. I need to always put out the disclaimer, right? It’s the folks who know about experimentation, um, Experiment Nation or myself or follow one of our hosts or, or people who are fans with us who have shared a word of the survey.

So there’s always that bias. Um, it’s Experiment Nation’s an English publication, so it’s going to be that bias. So I’ll list with a grain of salt. Um, this is fairly directional, uh, but at the end of the day, you know, it’s interesting to compare year over year. And to see these trends, um, so looking at the last 3 years from a median perspective, it’s nice to see that the salaries have gone up from a USD perspective, uh, from 70, 000 to 74, 000 to this year, um, Which is at 78, 000.

I wonder what your thoughts were about that increase, Tracy. You seem to be nodding as if it should go up. I assume that’s your perspective.

[00:05:01] Tracy Laranjo: I, I have thoughts and I have questions. So is it that salaries are going up because people are getting more experienced in CRO and you’re seeing a maturity in people who may have started as juniors when this Salary report came out and then just now we’re seeing more seniors.

I think I’m going to, I’m going to just have a theory here and it’s not backed by anything, but we can probably slice and dice this as we go. I am going to bet that there are a lot more people becoming consultants, especially with the turbulence of the job market in the last year or two years. And consultants.

Naturally, except if you’re me, uh, undercharging, they tend to make higher salaries. They have to charge more to cover their benefits. Uh, they have to, they have overhead, so they have to charge more. So I’m wondering if there are more consultants, uh, in the, uh, Most recent years,

[00:06:03] Rommil Santiago: maybe that’s actually interesting because the job market is not the best right now.

And it’s something that I’ve seen, uh, where a lot of companies are consolidating budget, they’re trying to save on software. They’re trying to cut where they can. Um, and maybe that’s a reflection of this, right? Yeah, people are. But they potentially could be becoming consultants and just trying to or what have you.

[00:06:26] Tracy Laranjo: I also noticed just from myself as a technically a consultant and my other peers who are also CRO consultants. I have noticed a rising trend. This is nothing new, but I’ve just noticed it more and more that a lot of. Teams or CRO agencies will, uh, hire individuals in low income or low cost of living places in the world.

And, you know, they’re trying to save a buck off the back of someone who, you know, doesn’t have a high cost of living. That may play a factor. I don’t know, but yeah, I don’t know. I think in general, I, when I first saw the salary report, I was so sad to find that the highest salary, the highest my salary ever was, was still slightly below the average of the CRO salary report for even for the women category.


[00:07:30] Rommil Santiago: actually a good segue. Well, before we jump into that, I want to say a few things. So one, I think it’s an indicator that probably consultants should be charging more.

[00:07:39] Tracy Laranjo: Always. Yeah. You tell me

[00:07:42] Rommil Santiago: like every

[00:07:44] Tracy Laranjo: day, charge more always.

[00:07:47] Rommil Santiago: Okay. So let’s, let’s jump down. Actually. It’s interesting that, um, you mentioned, uh, uh, the women aspect of this looking at this year.

It’s not a rosy picture, um, for women. Year over year, if you could see the graphic on there, we see that year over year, there’s been a drop in almost every country, Canada included, France didn’t do well, India really didn’t do well, and Portugal really, really didn’t do well. Um, The, the, some bright spots are looking like Australia, I guess you could consider another lens and the UK, the United States took a dip.

Um, it’s just interesting because, uh, to shout out the, uh, women experimentation movement, you know, um, they’ve been kind of growing over the last few months, years. Um, and unfortunately it’s not, not, it’s not being reflected in the salaries. I’d love to hear your take on this.

[00:08:44] Tracy Laranjo: Yeah. I mean, if. I had responded to this year’s survey, which I did not, uh, you would probably see, I’ll get to the, I’ll get to why, uh, but if I did, you would notice Canada’s, uh, 12 percent drop would probably skew lower just because I was a first time consultant, no idea how much I should be charging and therefore really undercharged for pretty much everything I worked on.

Now, You know, I don’t know how many respondents came through on Portugal, India, Chile, Brazil, where you kind of see the The worst drops, but I mean, I never want to see my female peers losing money year over year. I do, I would be curious to know how many respondents were laid off, maybe partway during the year.

Um, you know, I see people, uh, there’s always like a minimum that surprises me, a minimum submission every year. This year’s was 43. Who is making 43?

[00:09:48] Rommil Santiago: Interestingly, the 43 one, I noticed that too. Year over year over year, I get submissions like that.

[00:09:54] Tracy Laranjo: Yeah, I want to know how many of those, how much of it is, I really did make that little.

Last year and versus, uh, yeah, uh, that was a mistake. Like, okay. I see in 2023, the lowest wage was 7, 500. I could believe that if it was a rough year for someone, if they were laid off, if, uh, they, you know, became a first time consultant and just struggled to get clients. I, when I look at the quartiles, Uh, across the last three years, I do think it’s very interesting that the highest quartile Q3, very little change there, but in Q1 there, there was a drop since last year.

So the people who are making the least continue to be making less by the looks of it year over year. And the people who are making the most are kind of just making the same, that middle, like that median line. It is nice to see it keeps going steadily up, but. I am a little disheartened that the It’s kind of like a

[00:11:07] Rommil Santiago: divergence, right?

Yeah. You see the median going up, upper kind of, other than the outliers, the upper part flattening out, staying flat, and the lower part going down.

[00:11:21] Tracy Laranjo: Yes. Yes. I mean, okay. Anecdotally speaking for myself.

[00:11:26] Rommil Santiago: This is Rommil Santiago from Experiment Nation. Every week we share interviews with and conference sessions by our favorite conversion rate optimizers from around the world.

So if you liked this video, smash that like button and consider subscribing. It helps us a bunch. Now back to the episode.

[00:11:39] Tracy Laranjo: In 2023, I would have ended up in that median, uh, section last year. I would have ended up in Q1, that first quartile, the lowest of the low. And I want to know how many people had that shift year over year.

And so you, you. You were in the job market, you were hunting last year, you know that it’s a really crappy job market right now. It’s

[00:12:06] Rommil Santiago: not a great market, no, definitely.

[00:12:08] Tracy Laranjo: No. So, do you see that playing out in the numbers here?

[00:12:14] Rommil Santiago: I think so. I have to imagine that. The job situation has to be messing these numbers up a bit.

And I think that’s something to call out. I think in future surveys, I’ll add a question around, you know, job transitions that that’d be very insightful to know whether someone, um, you know, moved on from their last role or moved into a different role or, and then you can kind of explain some of these things, but it’s always, it’s always tricky with, uh, admittedly lower sample sizes.

Um, but at the same time, it gives some color right now, we’re asking a lot of questions like what happened here.

[00:12:51] Tracy Laranjo: Yeah,

[00:12:51] Rommil Santiago: that’s a lot next year. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:55] Tracy Laranjo: And another thing that I actually find very interesting is the satisfaction of salary by title. I am not surprised to see Team leads at the lowest satisfaction of 42%.

Again, anecdotally, the least satisfied I had ever been in my professional life was in a team lead role because also a big part of it was the salary, because I was doing. Let me

[00:13:23] Rommil Santiago: Google your LinkedIn. Give me some. No,

[00:13:25] Tracy Laranjo: no. Um, uh, my LinkedIn doesn’t exist. Uh, what, uh, blocks everyone. No, I mean, when you end up in a team lead role, you kind of have that, you wear all the hats, you are oftentimes, especially in CRO, you’re responsible for being the strategist and the analyst, sometimes the developer, the copywriter, designer, all of that.

And you’re responsible for oftentimes leading people. Your salary is not doubling, but your workload is doubling. That does not surprise me. Um, I, what also does not surprise me is the 73 percent uh, salary satisfaction from consultants. Speaking for myself, it’s, it’s, I think the work like that, I mean, okay.

Some people might be hearing this. Some consultants might hear this and be like, What planet is this girl on? But I am so happy with my salary, even though I’m making like what I made straight out of graduating school. Um, it’s low, but I’m not. It’s a

[00:14:34] Rommil Santiago: little now, let’s, let’s be clear. Okay. Look, hold on, you’re pretty selective about who you work with.

You’re, you’re, you’re picking lifestyle. And,

[00:14:43] Tracy Laranjo: uh, we’re going to go with last year. Cause this year I, I am noticing my income go up now that I’m advocating for, for a higher,

[00:14:52] Rommil Santiago: you’re telling people what to do

[00:14:54] Tracy Laranjo: now. I’m telling, yes, exactly. But I mean, last year I was making pickles and. I was so happy with my salary because I was not working twice as hard.

I was working half as hard. Yeah, I was making less than half as much, but that to me was worth it. I want to know how much of the consultants. Are experiencing that same thing, or maybe they’re just making bank and they’re like, wow, I love it. You

[00:15:20] Rommil Santiago: both. I imagine it’s both, but, um, work life balance, especially now that with the whole return to home thing, return to home,

[00:15:29] Tracy Laranjo: return

[00:15:29] Rommil Santiago: to work.

Okay. Uh, return to work. Um, no,

[00:15:32] Tracy Laranjo: no, it’s not returned to work. We’ve always been working. It’s returned to office. That’s right. Yes.

[00:15:38] Rommil Santiago: I always get the terms wrong, but return to office. Uh, I wonder how much. Yeah, consultants like, well, screw that. I don’t have

[00:15:45] Tracy Laranjo: to go back. Well, cause yeah, you have to pay for your commute.

You’re paying for gas, for transit. That, that reduces your salary.

[00:15:54] Rommil Santiago: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you get, you get, uh, pizza lunches sometimes.

[00:15:58] Tracy Laranjo: Oh, yes. Sorry, I could not forget about pizza lunches. Ping pong,

[00:16:01] Rommil Santiago: a little bit of ping pong. No, there, there, okay. I, there’s obviously some advantages to, to having water cooler conversations and stuff.

I’m, I’m a bit of a, I’m an advocate for a bit of a hybrid. But yeah, the commute kind of sucks. And I, I get why folks don’t want it.

[00:16:18] Tracy Laranjo: I hear that. But, um, yeah, I think it’s very telling that the juniors and associate levels, the managers and the team leads are experiencing the lowest salary satisfaction. I mean, I’ve been in those roles, uh, and I was not satisfied with my salary for the majority of the time.

[00:16:38] Rommil Santiago: The title that I want to achieve clearly is Other.

[00:16:42] Tracy Laranjo: Yes. Oh yeah. I want to be that person, yeah, the person who makes 500, 000 in Italy. I want to be them. I want whatever

[00:16:53] Rommil Santiago: they’re having. Maybe, maybe you do. I don’t know. It could be a lot of responsibilities.

[00:16:58] Tracy Laranjo: Yeah. If I have to work hard for that, then maybe not.

[00:17:01] Rommil Santiago: The other one, the other category, I’d have to dig into it a bit more, were really titles that I could not fit anywhere. It’s like, these are made up stuff, almost. Um, so I, I did group it in there, but yeah, they definitely seemed more satisfying. Do you

[00:17:17] Tracy Laranjo: know offhand what some of those are, those titles?

[00:17:21] Rommil Santiago: I could pull up the raw data, um, So I don’t know it offhand, but I’d, I’d have to dig into it.

And some of them were like, like really long, something a little bit of this and you know, like a, kind of a long explanation that didn’t fit anywhere. So that kind of gets into the other. Um, so moving on to, I think, is it the last category? Um, change over year over year for minorities. Which, um, stayed flat for most places.

Uh, I only include places that had shifts. Um, Canada staying flat at, uh, minus one something percent. Um, not, not that great. United States doing worse. Minus 26. What’s going on, uh, there? UK apparently is progressive. Doing well there.

[00:18:10] Tracy Laranjo: I’m happy for them. Um, don’t know what they’re doing good for them. Um, okay.

I, again, like this is just speculation. I do not have any data for this and it’s all anecdotal, but it. I guess this would make sense for the U. S. to see that kind of drop if U. S. employers and organizations are going overseas for cheaper talent.

[00:18:40] Rommil Santiago: Um,

[00:18:41] Tracy Laranjo: they may not be paying more for that talent overseas.

They may even be paying less or yeah, probably the most likely, but I could see how that could impact the, uh, U. S. salaries.

[00:18:55] Rommil Santiago: Yeah, the minorities coming to the United States, maybe they’re accepting something like that, like less than they should.

[00:19:01] Tracy Laranjo: I, I speak with a lot of new entrants to CRO and usually they’re, they’re international and they tell me what they want to charge.

And I’m like, you’re, you’re, you’re losing money. What are you doing? This is, this is so low. And I forget that there are lower costs of living where they are, but I still.

[00:19:22] Rommil Santiago: Apparently 40 something dollars.

[00:19:25] Tracy Laranjo: Yeah. Like, I, maybe that’s a lot, but I’ve, I’ve worked with peers where I’m charging Almost a hundred dollars an hour.

And they’re charging 20 an hour. And I’m like, what are you, what are you doing? Like, that might be a lot for them. I couldn’t survive on it. And maybe that’s why, uh, we are seeing drops in Canada and the U S and the North Americas. And I don’t. I don’t blame individuals in a low cost of living areas. It’s not, I’m not mad.

I’m not saying you’re taking our jobs or anything like that. I think I’m just more, uh, disappointed that there’s a lot of short term thinking about, I just want to save money on my team. I just want to pay less and just do that.

[00:20:11] Rommil Santiago: I think something to compare against. So people have a way to understand what 20 is an hour.

Uh, In California, McDonald’s pays about just under 16 an hour, you know, and you can argue, which is harder work, but that’s, that’s the level they’re coming in at. I mean,

[00:20:31] Tracy Laranjo: I, okay. I’m going to go, I’m not going to go on a tangent about this, but even minimum wage is too low. Minimum wage is too low. So I don’t think it’s a fair baseline for,

[00:20:42] Rommil Santiago: for

[00:20:43] Tracy Laranjo: income.

Um, Yeah, minimum wage should be like double what it is, at least in Canada,

[00:20:49] Rommil Santiago: it should be living wage. In my opinion. Yes,

[00:20:52] Tracy Laranjo: I agree. And unfortunately, I think the people who get hit the hardest by, um, short term thinking on salaries are unfortunately the people who are doing the work, not, not executives, not, uh, Uh, business owners, kind of why I like being a consultant is I can take that power back for myself if someone doesn’t want to pay my rate.

That’s their loss. I’m not what they were looking for anyway, but I do think this is an opportunity for experienced individuals in the North Americas to stop playing the, can I be the cheapest option game and start playing the, I am a premium service. I come with a lot of experience, I’m in your clients time zone, uh, or I’m in your time zone.

You’re paying for these extra things, but they’re worth it in the long run.

[00:21:46] Rommil Santiago: I find that is always a tough balance where usually when companies compete, they compete on price or, or being the best. Yes. Usually. So it’s a race to the bottom or you’re trying to outdo each other when you’re premium. Well, depends on how you define premium.

If you’re in between those two, it’s always tough because a customer will want to go cheaper or they’ll want the best. So you always have to position yourself carefully, not to be too cheap and not the best because then you compare the best of the best and you’re not doing so well. And if you compare it against the cheapest, like you’re too expensive.

So you’re always trying to find that balance.

[00:22:22] Tracy Laranjo: And I think that is relevant for not just consultants and the self employed. I think that also relates to employees and, and people who are trying to figure out what their, where they stand versus market rate. Yeah. Yeah. And I, Oh, I was, I was going to say one thing that really changed how I view salary and the moment I started advocating for myself a lot more was when I started viewing myself as a business.

Um, my, like I can work for. So many different companies, uh, I, at the time was usually only working for one. If they’re not giving me the best rate and combining that with a work environment that I like, it’s going to go to the next highest bidder who does have a great environment where I can thrive. And it’s, I stopped looking at my employers as they, they own me and I owe them and more like, no, I know what I’m worth.

I’m a business. I’m worth this much. I want my bag.

[00:23:28] Rommil Santiago: Of course. I mean, as much, as much as we want to deliver our best work, you know, and, and do what we can for our employer, you have to be fair to yourself.

[00:23:39] Tracy Laranjo: Yes. And if you’re, if you’re

[00:23:40] Rommil Santiago: not being like, and a lot of people lose sight of that. Yeah. You’re number one.

Yeah. If you’re, if you’re not taking care of you at the end of the day, on your deathbed, you’re not going to go, Oh, I wish I, Did more work. I wish I pulled another, um, put together another deck for the executives, you know? So you gotta be, you first, of course there’s a balance, but yeah,

[00:24:04] Tracy Laranjo: absolutely.

[00:24:05] Rommil Santiago: So I was going to jump off from there.

So now we have all this salary report. We talked about that. Um, I want to talk to you about. How can people make sure that they get the bag, as, as, as the kids say?

[00:24:20] Tracy Laranjo: Yeah. Okay. Um, I have, I have a few, I don’t miss

[00:24:25] Rommil Santiago: this whole episode. Get your bag.

[00:24:27] Tracy Laranjo: Yes, please do.

[00:24:30] Rommil Santiago: Get,

[00:24:31] Tracy Laranjo: get your money. Um, there were a few ways that I think compounded.

To help me get my bag. I mean, still, like I said before, I was still like hovering over the average at my highest salary. So maybe this is poor advice, but I, I think it’s so important to know, know your number, where you, where you fall in that number. So using tools like the CRO salary report, cause I knew I had no business asking for 200, 000.

But, uh, you know, uh, somewhat of my experience level, it’s pretty realistic for them to go for 80, 000. So being realistic about where you fall is very important, but also starting high because you can’t start low. And go higher, you can only start high and then go lower. So that’s been effective for me. Um, job hopping has been very effective for me.

Uh, I tripled my salary in seven years by doing so. It’s

[00:25:39] Rommil Santiago: a thing. Um, I think I want actually just to talk about that. I, a question I get a lot of the folks I mentor or I’m friends with is the perception that job A hopping is going to be negative. And I think that was true a long time ago. Um, but the average tenure, at least the last time I checked at a tech company is like a year and a half.

[00:25:59] Tracy Laranjo: Yeah. Two

[00:26:00] Rommil Santiago: years.

[00:26:00] Tracy Laranjo: Yes.

[00:26:01] Rommil Santiago: And that’s kind of, it’s sad in one way, but it’s just reality.

[00:26:04] Tracy Laranjo: Um,

[00:26:05] Rommil Santiago: job hunting, uh, hopping is just natural at this point,

[00:26:09] Tracy Laranjo: especially

[00:26:09] Rommil Santiago: with all the, the, the layoffs. You don’t have a choice.

[00:26:12] Tracy Laranjo: Yeah. Um,

[00:26:13] Rommil Santiago: so people always worry about, maybe I need to do, stay in a place for five years or what have you.

Yeah. Actually you don’t. Five

[00:26:21] Tracy Laranjo: years.

[00:26:24] Rommil Santiago: Whatever, whatever the number is, maybe I need to stay that long.

[00:26:27] Tracy Laranjo: Oh my God. I would always be like, okay, one year, one year. I got to hit the one year. No, it’s, I really do think that the last few years, people who used to worry about, Oh, I got to stay in this job for long enough, like myself.

I used to be like that. You start seeing all your friends or even yourself get impacted by layoffs or really shady cost cutting. Um, You look, you look at that and you’re like, well, you, my employer has no loyalty to me, so I’m going to look out for myself and I’m going to, I’m going to go for the highest bid or I’m going to go for the bid that feels right to me.

And if you were always the

[00:27:09] Rommil Santiago: highest bid, let’s be clear. Sometimes

[00:27:11] Tracy Laranjo: true.

[00:27:12] Rommil Santiago: You know, I’ve always told people, don’t chase titles, don’t chase money, because like, if that’s all you’re chasing, you’re not going to be happy.

[00:27:18] Tracy Laranjo: It does get overrated, yes. It feels good when you first get that promotion or that raise, but it’s, it fades.

Yeah. I do think though, it’s really important to detach from that mindset of, I need to be in a specific place for a certain period of time, because the world just is not going to offer you that same grace anymore. And, um, if you are a really desirable hire, sometimes you just naturally have to job hop because you’re getting so many opportunities coming your way.

[00:27:50] Rommil Santiago: Yeah, this doesn’t translate to dating.

[00:27:55] Tracy Laranjo: It certainly does not.

[00:27:58] Rommil Santiago: Um, Yeah, I interrupted you, so job hop, uh, job hopping, um, was your last one. Any other points? Um,

[00:28:06] Tracy Laranjo: I mean, I am so detached from the current job market right now because I’m, I swerved it. Yeah, I, I, I, I empathize so hard with everyone right now because it really is hard to find a job and to also find a good job, but I do think it’s very important to take inventory of all of your accomplishments, even the ones that you don’t think are a big deal and

[00:28:34] Rommil Santiago: craft

[00:28:36] Tracy Laranjo: stories around them that Show why you’re worth what you think you’re worth.

[00:28:42] Rommil Santiago: I love that

[00:28:43] Tracy Laranjo: it’s so important

[00:28:45] Rommil Santiago: in sales. You don’t go into a call with a, um, with a potential client with facts, rates, uh, hire me or no. No, it’s always the store. You’re always trying to tell a story that they’ll, um, see themselves in, see success in seeing you being a part of it. Um, and they want to be, want to hear a story.

They want to be part of the story. Uh, and unless you look at your accomplishments and tell that story, like I’m not going to remember anything that anyone says. So that’s actually great.

[00:29:16] Tracy Laranjo: I’m going to add one more thing here. I, maybe this is a controversial opinion. I don’t know, but I, what I tell a lot of new.

Junior CRO, uh, people looking for new jobs. They say, I don’t have any experiences in CRO. I don’t have any accomplishments to which I usually say, yes, you do. I promise you do. When was the last time you analyzed, uh, a campaign, things like that, but also You don’t necessarily need to have a case study or an A B test results to prove why you are deserving of top dollar or for the role.

My largest move salary wise was an increase of 20, 000 and I didn’t have a single A B test case study to share with them. What I did instead was I showed them. The process of how I get to, uh, an A B test idea and how I turn it into a, like, transformative learning.

[00:30:20] Rommil Santiago: It’s

[00:30:20] Tracy Laranjo: more important to be able to talk about your process and your mindset than it is to have a book full of A B test wins.

[00:30:29] Rommil Santiago: I know that’s something that I’ve done, I’ve done in the past when I used to hire. When I interview candidates, I want to hear how they think, you know, every story that they have. Yes. It’s going to be a well crafted story towards the thing, but I always poke around. How did you approach this? How did you come up with that?

You know, rather than someone coming in and going, you know, I raised sales by 25 percent like how I want the, how, so as long as you come up with a house story, it’s almost more important than, than, than the, the. You know, the case study version.

[00:31:01] Tracy Laranjo: I think any candidate, job candidate who can get a grip on that can leverage that for more money.

[00:31:10] Rommil Santiago: Yeah. But

[00:31:10] Tracy Laranjo: again, I’m not in this job market right now. Thoughts and prayers. Uh, yeah, I do not envy anyone who’s in there right now. Thoughts

[00:31:20] Rommil Santiago: and prayers. So, um, those are, those are all great tips and, um, the salary report is out now. Um, Tracy, what do you have going on in your world that you’d like to share with our audience?

[00:31:32] Tracy Laranjo: I thought you were going to ask me, how much money do you make? I actually don’t know. Um, good question. Yeah. You can find me in a few places. I’m everywhere. Apparently you can find me first and foremost on this podcast.

[00:31:47] Rommil Santiago: I

[00:31:50] Tracy Laranjo: have some wacky interviews with other experimenters, so check those out. Um, you should also check me out on LinkedIn.

That’s where I do the majority of my posting. And, uh, if you want to work with me in future, uh, you want to start a CRO program or you are a CRO agency and you really need someone experienced on your team, you can email me at hello at Tracy Laranjo. com. Yeah. Better be in the description cause you’re not going to know how to spell my name otherwise.

[00:32:25] Rommil Santiago: I’ll put it on the screen. Don’t worry. What does that mean by the way, Laranjo?

[00:32:31] Tracy Laranjo: It means orange. So. Yeah, if you see, if you see the orange emoji all over LinkedIn or Slack on my name, yes, you find me. I’m the orange girl.

[00:32:47] Rommil Santiago: Nice. I’m surprised you didn’t dye your hair orange, actually.

[00:32:51] Tracy Laranjo: It will. It will fade orange.

It will.

[00:32:53] Rommil Santiago: Oh, so you’ll be on brand in every sense. I will. Very impressive. Yes, It will look very

[00:32:58] Tracy Laranjo: frizzy and dry, but, uh, it will be on brand.

[00:33:04] Rommil Santiago: All right. So that’s our episode. Thank you everyone for joining and listening to us. Uh, if you enjoyed what we do, if you enjoy what we do, please consider subscribing.

Uh, until the next episode, thank you very much, Tracy, for coming on the show. Uh, and, uh, we’ll catch you around.

[00:33:19] Tracy Laranjo: Thank you. And get your bag, everyone.

[00:33:23] Rommil Santiago: Big emoji in size. This is Romo Santiago from Experiment Nation. Every week we share interviews with and conference sessions by our favorite conversion rate optimizers from around the world.

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